The horror of the GI who went bonkers and opened fire on Afghan civilians has shaken many, but one nurse wasn't surprised. She asks "what do you expect?".
"There were 60 of them. About 12 litters and 48 ambulatory. It was me, another nurse and 3 techs. In the back of a C130 cargo plane flying over the desert. They had a variety of injuries, none critical. There were more psychs than you would think. Back then, those with mental health problems were sent home, not given SSRIs and sent back. No one with PTSD would ever have been sent back"
Read the rest. It's a perspective you probably won't find anywhere else.
Back then no one would have been expected to return over and over, up to four times. Like I said, the psychs were sent home. The injured would never have come back. You knew who the enemy was and where they were.
ReplyDeleteNowadays the soldiers don't know who the enemy is, where they are hiding. They can't travel safely for fear of having an IED explode under their vehicle. They travel anyway. The injured go back. Those with PTSD are counselled, given medication and sent back. The depressed are given meds and kept over there.
This.
So... Yes and no. I mean, I agree and I don't agree. And part of it is because I'm not convinced that this soldier went nuts and wasn't already nuts. I'm also 100% positive that there's more to the story (not in a conspiracy sort of way, just that investigations have not been completed and we don't know what they are going to say).
ReplyDeleteIt was a horrible act, regardless. Horrible. Awful. There is no excuse.
And the military community is exhausted: exhausted from deployments, exhausted from the nebulous rules (not just ROE, but the silliness of a politicized leadership and bureaucratic ridiculousness that doesn't add anything to the military, but somehow never gets cut when military funding dries up), exhausted from defending themselves and their actions to people who have no idea what it is like (absolutely no finger pointing at anyone here, because you all have been amazing at trying to understand and listening across the board) such as in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4Esni1RbwU
But I don't agree with the "we didn't always do this," idea. My Pop was in the South Pacific for multiple years without a trip home in WWII. My Dad was in Vietnam, his brother at the same time (they even met up, which is a very funny story I'll have to tell sometime). They had their share of people who were breaking and yet weren't sent home.
One of my previous bosses did three tours in Vietnam, my other boss (same business) "only" did two. That's how he said it. "only". I mention the "only" because I think it is indicative of how people feel. You don't qualify with an "only" if you think it's a large number.
We qualify. AFG has only done three war zone deployments. And I will say right now that we have been VERY lucky. AFG has no lingering issues like PTSD from his deployments, and he was not a fobbit for any of them. We know people who do have issues of varying severity, not one of them has shot up anyone's house, school, or other congregational area, either overseas or at home.
This Ain't Hell has a GREAT run-down here:
http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=29236
On the other hand, a google search will pop up with stories of civilians without war-zone trauma who have gone on shooting sprees. So, I think just pointing the finger at PTSD in this case is a disservice. There's more to it than that, far more.
That does not change the fact that there is a large divide between the military and civilian world now - one that widens the longer we do this, I think. There are many, many supportive civilians who do not get weird and threatened looks on their faces when a military person slips into the gallows humor that pervades everything military people do. There are many, many supportive civilians who do not gasp at the truthful answers they get when they ask questions that hit very close to home.
But there are many, many others that do. And that link SSG Bales with every other combat vet, simply because they don't know anyone who has come back - with or without PTSD. And not knowing anyone with PTSD makes it a boogeyman of epic proportions.
So I don't know if I explained myself well, but I hope I did. Because my thoughts, and they are only mine and certainly not the last word on anything, are to say yes and no to this.
You've explained yourself brilliantly! Thanks for your thoughts on this, AFW. Like you guys, we know many men who have served multiple tours in hot zones, and none of them flipped their lid and ran around shooting civilians.
ReplyDeleteI've been following the reaction of Jonn and the guys at TAH, and when I read this blog post by girlvet I was intrigued by her unique perspective.
I hate the civilian/military gulf. I really do.
ReplyDeleteAnd I think a lot of the reason for it can be laid at the feet of the entertainment industry and the news. They either ignore things that really need to be looked at, lump everyone together into the "crazy vet" category, forget there are people fighting and dying, or judge and complain. Or equate ridiculousness like playing Call of Duty to war.
And Shepherd Smith gets on my last nerve. Not that it has anything to do with the discussion at hand - I just wanted to get that out there. He's become manorexic, he wears more eyeliner than Cher, apparently buys the same tanning lotion as Snooki and John Boehner, and he's tries to use a horrible mix of deadpan and hysterics. Ugh. Pttthhhh.
Anyway, the only military people are exposed to is on TV sometimes. It's not a good portrayal. It's either always all horrible (Crazy! Vets! PTSD!) or ridiculously inhumanly good (walking around on water wearing halos).
I think the truth is very complicated.
I also can't stand Geraldo. I might as well come clean with that, too. The first thing I do whenever I see him is look for boogers in his moustache.
I agree with you about the "hollywood effect", afw. Our liberal local news reported about this soldier from the "troubled Ft. Lewis/McCord joint base". BS! It's not troubled! And these people should know better. They didn't refer to Ft. Hood as "troubled".
DeleteI'm sick of the double standard. BTW, as to lewy's points below, I'm still waiting for that rat fink Michael Moore to do his montage of the war casualties making Obama's face. Effing hypocrites. Where is Blitzer's nightly casualty count? It makes me so angry.
OT - I hear you about "Shep", afw, I can't STAND him. I can't watch either of his shows for one minute! Not to mention his eyes are on the side of his head like an alien.
ReplyDeleteWe pretty much quit watching SNL because it just isn't funny anymore. I don't mind them poking fun at the repubs but that's ALL they do, there's no fair play like there was in the Will Farrell days. That said, last weekend we were flipping through the channels and saw the beginning of SNL. They were ridiculing Romney as usual but it was in the context of the Shepherd Smith show, lol!!! They made him look insane, he kept giving asides to his mother (who was a skeleton in a wheelchair) a la Norman Bates in Psycho. ROFLMFAO!!!! I'll go see if I can dig up a link so that you can enjoy it as well...
And yes, Geraldo is a pig, he said he wanted to spit on Michelle Malkin because she had the gall to disagree with him about illegal aliens.
I found it!!! Enjoy :-)
ReplyDeleteThey had Shep DOWN. DOWN!
DeleteJudging from the context of lady red's original link, I'm guessing that the nurse who wrote it was talking about Desert Storm. I think that was about the only conflict where there was sufficient force assembled so that soldiers with issues could just be sent home.
ReplyDeleteWe saw a lot of stories in the Bush administration about how the military was getting destroyed by prolonged deployments. Now, not so much.
We saw a lot of stories in the Bush administration about how soldiers who committed atrocities were doing so because of the tone or attitudes of the administration. Now, not so much.
The truth is that the media is 90% hard core transnational utopian dipsh*t, and the utter destruction of morale in the volunteer army is not something to criticize, it's something to cheer - if silently. (If a Republican is president, it's simply a weapon that falls to hand, to be used against him).
The truth is that the culture in which Obama came of age - liberal, hyper-critical of US "militarism", and utterly sanctimonious and self righteous - hates the military and would like nothing more than to see it gutted.
The extent to which that culture informs our current CIC and his decisions is a matter of some speculation.
But the truth is that the current military "strategy" is baffling to almost everyone, across the political spectrum. (And two cheers for Glenn Greenwald - he may be an insufferable puss but he's non-partisan about it, one of the few on the Left to call out the current administration on their hypocrisy).
Exactly. Well said.
DeleteWell said, lewy, well said. I think you are spot on.
ReplyDeleteAir Force Wife has stated the conundrum best. What we do not know exceeds what we do know of the incident. This incident and how it's being handled by media so irritates me I cannot really speak to it. However, I will add one thing ... the minute, the very fucking minute, the political impetus at home in the USA begins to rant on and on about withdrawing, cutting the military down to size, regulating soldiers like some kindergarten game, not having so much power, "getting out", etc etc ... the mood changes within the enlisted ranks of the military, period. Period Period. Good officers bail first, then the enlisted ranks deteriorate in to internal squabbles, some very ugly and destabilizing, and NO fucking one wants to be the last man killed ... no one, no one, no one. About then the effectiveness goes to shit. I'm not guessing, I was in it and part of it in the early 70's (actually it began in late 1969) and saw the military gutted, retaining little in the way of experienced war fighters...save for a few in special operations, and even there, not enough. Same crap happened again in the early 90's. Same shit is beginning to happen now, and will continue to happen under this administration or any other weak kneed dick headed administration.
ReplyDeleteThen time passed and those at home get all comfortable ... until the shit hits the fan again and we have to scramble to rebuild what we've wrecked ... and thus allowed piss ants to attack us or our interests. One of these times we just might not be able to ramp up fast enough.
Why the hell are we so g-d damned afraid of being the 900 pound gorilla in the room?
We pay in lucre and blood every damn time we reduce our role. Some time we may not survive it.
Progress in the emasculation of the military in Afghanistan is commencing as we speak. US Administration and US Military officials are negotiating with Mr KArzai and the Afghan "government" about the conduct of Taliban targeted night raids in the countryside. A proposal put forth by the US is that such raids would, in the future, be reviewed by Afghan judges before execution of the raid under a warrant issued by those same judges. Hello? Civilian judiciary active in combat operations?
ReplyDeleteHow'd you like to be a special operator or infantry hunter team member working under those conditions? Your directions/plans have been vetted by civilians of a foreign government. How long before the ambushers become the ambushed, walking in to traps?
I'll give it a month, or less.
And... Karzai wants more, like no Yankee or NATO infidel "strangers" entering Afghan houses, to protect the virtue of women unrelated to them by blood or marriage. He wants only Afghan "strangers" to search the houses....unless Karzai plans to only send relatives of the house occupants on such raids, eh?
We eat this shit and then wonder why we're losing respect.
Solution: No more night raids by ground troops. Just blow the suspect places to Hades by drone or aircraft launched missiles.
The okay by an Afghan judge is suicide. The word will be passed to those ready to kill our soldiers. I mean, "allied" Afghan soldiers working with our troops there have murdered multiple Americans and other NATO troops, and no one is reporting it:
Deletehttp://www.nationaljournal.com/nationalsecurity/report-another-u-s-soldier-killed-by-afghan-ally-20120316
And:
http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/-/world/13221419/afghan-allies-killed-13-nato-soldiers-in-2012-allen/
Bad ideas. And military lives are the pawns for them (nothing unusual there).
I'm very aware of the murder of US and NATO soldiers by Afghan police & soldiers. No other way to describe the last one, a shot in the back of the head is an execution.
DeleteThis is one of a few reasons I can't really speak in cogent civil terms on this whole topic. Something I fear but don'[t know for sure in the present day is whether some fucking rule or procedure sets soldiers up for this obscenity. The military is strange that way....some high ranking thoroughly politicized individual decides he can't trust his troops so he places some ridiculous requirement on them ... like keeping their weapon unloaded, among many possibilities.
I do know, for absolute fact, that the first US marines to mover out of DaNang, RVN, when the US took the war to the countryside, those marines were ordered not to have a round in the chamber of their M-14's, just a loaded magazine in the well...one of my best friends, easily in the top 5 of those I love, was one of them, and when they encountered their first fire fight, the rifle jammed as he tried to chamber a round. His description of trying to take cover, in a paddy, clear the weapon and engage is hilarious now, but not so funny back then.
I have my own favorite war funny along this line ... being sent out with my squad of 9 to keep the peace in mob of some 5,000 .... and ordered to carry only 5 rounds in our magazines, none chambered. What was that? .... four for the 5000 crazies and one for each of us? F' that, we carried 120 to 240 rounds on bandoleers, slung under our fatigue blouses ... with one magazine showing with the 5 rounds for gate check out.
That is just one tiny way how morale goes to shit, little things add up, and soon enough good NCO's break the rules or ignore them. You do NOT lead 9 men into a suicide if there is ANY way not to do so and still carry out your orders otherwise. And I was one good f'ing NCO.
I will praise our current soldiers to the highest, because they do every day many tasks I don't think I could have hacked myself. They are the best ... and it infuriates me that we squander even one foolishly.
You are absolutely right.
DeleteThanks, but I wish I was not. I'd rather by far that such stories be merely incidental humorous anecdotes. I can't believe the general scheme hasn't changed much in some 40 or more years, kept up with technology and all that. Yet, when Panetta visited Afghanistan ... yep, some wheel decided he couldn't trust his US troops (who no doubt did not want to be there for the grip & grin anyway) and made them stack arms outside the meeting area. Little things, little things ... but what-cha think some Marines are thinking as they are ordered out on their next patrol by the same commander? You know, that same commander who sees them as equivalent to their Afghan trainees?
DeleteI've seen so much of it before, during a wind down. Maybe the lack of a draft system will prevent the "minorites serve & die out of proportion to their population percentage" ... which wasn't true, but the strife the idea caused was immense ... those 5000 crazies I mentioned earlier, they were race rioters, majority military ... overseas no less.
I am in awe of our soldiers today, as I said, I really do doubt I could function under their loads, their stress, and the conditions they must adapt to under various ROE's. I had too much trouble sorting out much simpler ROE's many years ago. And, no, "free fire zone" then did not mean you could just kill anything and everything that moved ... you were expected to have and use mature judgment ... and the vast bulk of the basically youngsters of that day did so with valor.
So, I have faith in the soldier ...the front line men and women, but it decreases as the rank heads north of 05, with some notable exceptions, and the politicization sets in ....sigh.
Aridog, thanks for sharing your insight and experience, and to everyone else for expressing your thoughts on this subject. This is a great discussion.
ReplyDeleteI'll be so relieved when our guys and gals are out of Afghanistan. You'd think we could've learned SOMETHING from the Russian debacle over there, but NO. I don't think Obama will withdraw all of our troops; he's a horrible CIC, an idiot, just like that f*cking Carter.
What's Romney's take on our involvement in that hellhole? Does anyone know?
No idea about Romney's ideas, but whatever, without a reasonable hold-harmless Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) going forward, we'll not be able to keep troops in Afghanistan. Iraq refused a sane SOFA and we must leave.
DeleteI doubt even the current idiot would agree to an agreement where American servicemen and women would be subject to Afghan law and their courts.
At least I hope he'd not, since he didn't in Iraq.
In my opinion, if he's smart, President Karsai will gather up his booty, ca-ching, and skeedaddle for happy exile somewhere at least one day before the last troops leave. I suspect he's toast if he does not. He's already acting hysterically.
As somebody somewhere once said... and again...
ReplyDelete...at least the Brits shot back and killed the guy instantly.