I returned yesterday afternoon from the Embassy gym, which had the BBC World Service on during the hour I was there. Thus, I was forced to endure watching thousands upon thousands of Palestinian Muslim young men celebrating what they obviously consider a complete victory over Israel, interspersed with pictures of smiling women with hordes of children receiving free food and drink from the UN, shot through with experts declaring what a horrible black eye to Israel's international relations this event was.
What was the bloody point?
What was the bloody point of going to war, bombing buildings and killing people, if at some point you were just going to stop, your demands unfulfilled, your conditions unmet and the enemy clearly of the view that they prevailed, both on the battlefield and in the battle for international public opinion?
It's very, very simple: if your enemy is dancing and cheering in the open, without the slightest fear of you, you have lost. Period.
What a waste of time and lives. If Israel isn't willing to fight for real, I don't see the point in endlessly supporting her. I feel no pressing need to be more Catholic than the Pope nor more Zionist than the Zionist leadership of Israel.
What was the bloody point?
What was the bloody point of going to war, bombing buildings and killing people, if at some point you were just going to stop, your demands unfulfilled, your conditions unmet and the enemy clearly of the view that they prevailed, both on the battlefield and in the battle for international public opinion?
It's very, very simple: if your enemy is dancing and cheering in the open, without the slightest fear of you, you have lost. Period.
What a waste of time and lives. If Israel isn't willing to fight for real, I don't see the point in endlessly supporting her. I feel no pressing need to be more Catholic than the Pope nor more Zionist than the Zionist leadership of Israel.
It's pyrrhic theatre. [1]
ReplyDeleteHamas stages these. It's not a free country - come on, when you tune in and see clips of celebrations in Cuba or North Korea do you assume that each of the citizens is feeling joy in their hearts?
Gaza has paid a huge price. We've seen a "disproportionate" focus on their suffering, to be sure - but that suffering is real. The celebrations are over. The rubble is still there.
Look at the facts. Hamas achieved precisely nothing as far as its objectives. It's all well and good do be fawned over by Scottish Leftists and the like but as far as its traditional patrons - those who could actually help it - it is completely isolated. Egypt and Saudi Arabia are moving closer to Israel; Qatar is feeling blowback from ISIS (which would eat the emir - literally - just as quick as the Monster destroyed Dr. Frankenstein). Hizballah pretty much sat on their hands this round, because Hamas is a (Sunni) Brotherhood offshoot and the sectarian angle has become dominant in the wake of ISIS.
Israel cannot get rid of Hamas, for a variety of reasons. It got what it needed, which is to attrit Hamas - "mow the lawn" - and achieve "quiet for quiet". The sad and cynical reality is that the next action against Hamas will likely come from Abbas's PA; this will suit Israel just fine.
Netanyahu's popularity has declined substantially in the last weeks as it became apparent that the war would end inconclusively (again). An Israeli child was killed in by a mortar in the last hours before the ceasefire.
I never thought I'd have to defend Bibi for being dovish but there you go. Here's the thing: Israel has a very strong military but that's just the cutting edge. The country as a whole is a sprinter - it's not set up to wage a long campaign. The economy was beginning to feel damage from the war and that damage, had it continued, would have become structural.
The BDS bullshit gets too much attention. The real action comes when companies and investors make business decisions about who to chose as a supplier or partner. Military without a strong economy is hollow, and war is bad for business. Israel needs a period of calm to let the tourists come back, reassure markets, get people back to work, let GDP bounce, ramp the TA25 back up...
...rinse, lather, repeat.
All this is profoundly unsatisfying but life often is. There are no solutions, there is no decisive answer. This is the Middle East.
What Bibi has done makes sense and seems correct. It's the job of the leader to do what is right, not what is popular or sensational. "Reality" is what is still there when the TV cameras go away. [2]
[1] Heh. To riff on a quote by David Lee Roth: when you can spell "pyrrhic" without looking it up, you know your life has taken a bad turn...
[2] Phillip K. Dick: "Reality is what is still there when you stop believing in it."
Lewy, I know you thought I wouldn't like your take on the ceasefire but in fact you reflect fairly well my own thoughts. I'm probably a bit (lot) more angry at Bibi, but having seen, read, and heard so many articles about it, I'm pretty much in agreement with you.
DeleteMy only caveat is the timing of the ceasefire. Precisely at that time, when Hamas ramped up the bombardment to an unprecedented level and killed 2 Israeli kibbutzniks - that was NOT the time to declare a ceasefire. Israel should have bombarded the border area or in fact ANYWHERE in Gaza - and THEN declared the ceasefire in place.
But it wouldn't have worked. Hamas would have fired back. It's never-ending. Let them declare victory. Another victory like that and they're done for...
Speaking of which, another of their leaders has mysteriously disappeaerd. Ismail Haniyyeh has had a heart attackor some such. Perhaps he got a shock when he emerged from his tunnel like a rat and saw the destruction all around.
We can hope...
Excellent post lewy. You nailed it.
Delete"What Bibi has done makes sense and seems correct. It's the job of the leader to do what is right, not what is popular or sensational. "Reality" is what is still there when the TV cameras go away."
ReplyDeleteYes.
Israel isn't asking you to be more Zionist than her Zionist leadership. In my opinion, it's real simple - you're either on the side of good over evil or you're not. I know you're on the side of good. I share your frustration, Jourdan. I wanted to see an overwhelming "shock and awe" type offensive, for lack of a better description. I want to see Gaza back in Israeli hands, for that matter. I hate it that Israel (and the US) has to fight PC wars, and use ridiculous, self-defeating RoE. I agree with lewy in what he said about Bibi's actions.
ReplyDeleteWell said florrie. I too am frustrated, but I'm a staunch Zionist. Bibi will do what he believes is best for Israel. In his defense, it's difficult to fight a war with the media jackals yapping and snarling at his heels every minute.
DeleteJourdan, all I am going to say here is I am FURIOUS with your reaction.
ReplyDeleteIf Israel isn't willing to fight for real, I don't see the point in endlessly supporting her
How DARE you declare you won't support Israel any more because we are not prepared to fight to the last drop of our blood to satisfy your wishes.
If you are a friend of Israel you will support her no matter what. Yes, you can criticise. Don't think we don't. We criticise all the time, as you well know. Read my blog and see how I criticise the government, Bibi, the opposition and everyone else.
But that doesn't mean we stop loving our country or supporting her.
Israel doesn't need fair-weather friends. If you're only going to support us when we're winning, then you're on to a losing proposition. Go and support China or Russia instead.
Annie - I honestly don't see how my take above is significantly different than your take above:
DeleteMy only caveat is the timing of the ceasefire. Precisely at that time, when Hamas ramped up the bombardment to an unprecedented level and killed 2 Israeli kibbutzniks - that was NOT the time to declare a ceasefire. Israel should have bombarded the border area or in fact ANYWHERE in Gaza - and THEN declared the ceasefire in place.
By "support", I mean support for these sorts of unconclusive engagements in which Israel comes out the loser. I mean that I'm not going to support calls for the elimination of Hamas if the Zionist people living there don't support it.
What I did not mean by "support" was support in the large, existential sense: I support Israel, the Zionist cause and her right to live in peace.
"How DARE you declare you won't support Israel any more because we are not prepared to fight to the last drop of our blood to satisfy your wishes."
DeleteThis is what I said, Nor do I think any fair reading of what I wrote would find that meaning in what I wrote.
Jourdan, I don't think any of us living safely in our homes without missiles exploding around us and our families can criticize the decisions that Bibi has made. He has many issues on his plate to weigh and consider. The Israeli leaders must do what is best for Israel. IMHO, either a person is a Zionist and a supporter of the Israeli state, or they are not. In for a penny, in for a pound.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Bibi did as well as he could given the circumstances. Remember, the IDF destroyed a lot of missiles and other arms, killed a lot of fighters and parts of Hamas leadership, as well as destroyed many terror tunnels, preventing future attacks.
ReplyDeleteMany who want Hamas completely ended would have liked to see more, but realistically, the only way Israel could destroy Hamas would be to destroy Gaza completely, which would lead to many more problems and much more violence against Israel.
Netanyahu and the IDF did what they could do, and what they've had to do many times before. Remove as much of the Hamas leadership as they could reach, kill a lot of young, violent fools and degrade Hamas' ability to attack, at least for a while.
In todays world, that looks like a victory to me
Very good post, Dances, I think your analysis is exactly right.
ReplyDelete"Many who want Hamas completely ended would have liked to see more, but realistically, the only way Israel could destroy Hamas would be to destroy Gaza completely, which would lead to many more problems and much more violence against Israel."
Well Jourdan, I guess Israel will survive without you. So you can go on your merry way, "wondering what the bloody point was".
ReplyDeleteOur friend annie has been writing every day (often more than once a day) "what the bloody point was."
Israellycool could probably help with your question of "what the bloody point was" as well http://www.israellycool.com/
Perhaps the victims of ISIS could tell you, "what the bloody point was" . Oops no they can't, they are dead.
Really Jourdan? Really, YOU of all people are asking, " "what the bloody point was"
Israel, first and foremost, protects her people.
If I was a citizen under attack from a bloodthirsty enemy, I'd take Bibi's left fingernail over the US government at this point in time.
img:"http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/floranista/emoticons/tinyheart.gif"
DeleteTo be fair to Jourdan, "What was the point of all that" was pretty much the vibe I got from reading annie's post originally, which is why I told her I didn't think she'd like my defense of Netanyahu.
ReplyDeleteNot just annie but a wide swath of the Israeli public and political establishment. "What was the point of all that" (if we're not going to "destroy Hamas") is the sentiment driving down Netanyahu's poll numbers.
I think Jourdan's expression was somewhat clumsy but when he says What I did not mean by "support" was support in the large, existential sense: I support Israel, the Zionist cause and her right to live in peace I believe him.
The whole "bloody point" was to defend Israel from a war not of its own making.
DeleteI think you are all forgetting that it was not Israel that got up one fine morning and decided to go to war. It was Hamas that started the war and Israel should have finished it.
But the "blood point" was fulfilled - Israel showed Hamas that their rockets don't make a dent on Israel. Yes, our lives were curtailed somewhat, we are all traumatized to a greater or lesser degree, but they did not bring israel to its knees.
However, to give Jourdan credit, he's right that Bibi declaerd the ceasefire too soon for our liking - much too soon in fact.
On the other hand I don't know how much longer Israel could have withstood international pressure (no other country is ever pressured to finish a war prematurely, especially when it looks like it's winning), but also internal domestic pressures, particularly economic. Our tourism industry has suffered enormously this year, even internal tourism. And the south of Israel has come to a full stop for the moment. Most residents are not returning home for the moment because they don't trust Hamas not to break the ceasefire for the 12th time.
Then again - According to a close relative, a career soldier in the IDF, Hamas did come crawling and begging for a ceasefire - this was after the IDF bombed those high-rises. Those are the luxury homes of Hamas leaders. As long as it was "only" the homes of the poor, the hospitals and schools, Hamas were happy to fight to the last drop of their people's blood, especially as it made such good PR for them with Israel killing civilians.
But when their own precious homes were hit - THAT was too much for them.
Which then begs the question why didn't Israel hit those homes first? I do know that we did hit the homes of other Hamas officials early in the war, but not those high-rises. I have no idea why, or what the tactics or strategy was.
But Jourdan's words about giving up on supporting Israel - sorry, maybe I'm being over-sensitive here, but all my alarm bells rang.
Please, if you're going to support Israel, support us through thick and thin. Criticise and ask questions all you like. It what we do ourselves, it's our national pastime.
But don't support us only when we're winning. It's at times like these that we need the most support of all.
annie, I too wonder why the high-rise apartments weren't targeted earlier. It did seem to be effective.
DeleteUntil recently I'd been living in just such a tower myself; I have a visceral sense of how much concrete, glass and steel is in one of those things.
I'll confess I was somewhat surprised to watch the Gaza towers collapse on TV; I didn't think that the IDF would do something like that. But I'm glad they did.
At least when they start letting concrete and rebar back through into Gaza, you know at least some of it will go into rebuilding, as opposed to more tunnels.