Several thousand supporters of President Hosni Mubarak, including some riding horses and camels and wielding whips, attacked anti-government protesters Wednesday as Egypt's upheaval took a dangerous new turn. In chaotic scenes, the two sides pelted each other with stones, and protesters dragged attackers off their horses.
The turmoil was the first significant violence between supporters of the two camps in more than a week of anti-government protests. It erupted after Mubarak went on national television the night before and rejected demands he step down immediately and said he would serve out the remaining seven months of his term.
The Muslim Brotherhood is not letting a serious crisis go to waste. These nutty f*ckers scare me to death:
Muhammad Ghannem reportedly told Al- Alam that the Suez Canal should be closed immediately, and that the flow of gas from Egypt to Israel should cease “in order to bring about the downfall of the Mubarak regime.” He added that “the people should be prepared for war against Israel,” saying the world should understand that “the Egyptian people are prepared for anything to get rid of this regime.
I don't pretend to know what's going on in Egypt. Each individual news organization has their own spin on why a quarter of a million people are chanting in Cairo's streets. I do know this: I'm chilled to the bone for Israel.
"I'm chilled to the bone for Israel."
ReplyDeleteAren't we all, aren't we all.
The MB is the wild card right now, but I fear there are machinations behind the scenes, Iran for example, that will lead them to power in one way or another. Honestly, if Israel is attacked I'm ready to nuke the whole damn bunch of 'them'. Convince me the world wouldn't be better off.
If Israel is attacked, I fear our own country will be plunged into anarchy. Most of us, military included, will fight for Israel to our dying breath. However, Obama and his loony Marxist cadre will not (IMHO).
ReplyDeleteAll of this is too horrific to comtemplate, yet here we are, discussing the unthinkable.
Stay strong, Israel.
I've been on pins and needles for annie and her family; if Egypt turns Islamist...
ReplyDeleteRobert Spencer's Jihad Watch has been doing a great job following the story behind the story. "Democracy" is a convenient excuse to get rid of Mubarak; the rank and file hate him for making a treaty with Israel - the rest is just window dressing. It's been telling that the Copts have been absent from the demonstrations; they are afraid of what will happen when Mubarak leaves. And they should be - they've been watching the slaughter of Christians in the aftermath of Saddam in Iraq.
I had an interesting conversation this week with the most anti-Muslim person I've ever met - a Lebanese Christian who moved to Australia as a teen, and now lives in the US. For years, she's spent much of the year traveling in the Mid East and working with churches there.
Her take? You can't trust a practicing Muslim. Period. Full stop. (Sufis may be an exception). And she's floored that so many in the West are completely blind to what's happening around them.
For sure agree about annie, Lyana. Not sure how to say this but I'm glad that even if in such a tenuous fashion we have annie in our lives. It's all fine and good to feel for Israel, as we all do, but it makes it more personal and less just an intellectual exercise knowing a living breathing soul there in Israel.
ReplyDeleteAlso agree about the farce of 'democracy' in Egypt. I'd love to be wrong of course but I don't see that ever happening in a country with a Muslim majority, I just don't.
"You can't trust a practicing Muslim."
Harsh words, eh. But is there any evidence to the contrary? What do you think, Ari? You have a greater interaction with Muslims than any of us I suspect. Though you get along well with your neighbors; if something were to come up where loyalty to Allah or Country was the only choice, where would they stand? Do they 'get it'?
Yes Lady Red, discussing the unthinkable. But then we have to, don't we?
All of this is too horrific to comtemplate, yet here we are, discussing the unthinkable.
ReplyDeleteYes, I'm loathe to voice my fears, it's too awful to consider. My prayers are with annie, her family and Israel.
Obama better grow a pair and do the right thing.
Her take? You can't trust a practicing Muslim. Period. Full stop. (Sufis may be an exception). And she's floored that so many in the West are completely blind to what's happening around them.
ReplyDeleteIt's taken a while but I am now of the same opinion.
I'd like to hear Aridog's opinion too, Luther.
"Obama better grow a pair and do the right thing."
ReplyDeleteYou know what though, florrie. I'm not sure what the right thing is, right now. Maybe the best thing Obama could do is to keep his mouth shut. I really don't know what we, as a Country, should be doing.
Obama better grow a pair and do the right thing.
ReplyDeleteObama doesn't lead. He just reacts. He's in way over his head, and lurching from one press conference to another as the Middle East disintegrates into a primitive and barbarous caliphate.
We don't get the "strong man" aspect of Arab culture - we really don't. We didn't get it when our embassy was bombed, we didn't get it when the Cole was bombed, we didn't get it when the twin towers were bombed. Both the Taliban and Saddam needed to be ousted, but left vacuums we didn't fill because we wanted to be "sensitive". We could have been the strong man, but didn't choose that route either time and will continue to pay for it, perhaps with our civilization.
ReplyDeleteHappy thoughts for a Tuesday morning...
"Her take? You can't trust a practicing Muslim. Period. Full stop."
ReplyDeleteShe's right. If you mean completely trust (as in with your life, or even just acceptance that your beliefs are okay) ... you just cannot, no matter how good friends you may be otherwise. There-are-no-exceptions that I am familiar with here ...a 90+% Muslim community.
It isn't an individual "character" problem. It is a collective mentality that will always side with anyone Islamic, no matter how much they might hate them otherwise. Kneejerk response to peer pressure (and no small amount of plain old fear) ... no one will venture to be first to stand differently. Period.
Muslims all around you will not, on their own accord, harm you, but they will not intervene with those who will harm you. Get it?
I live amongst it, get along fine, good friends with many ...but I know, frankly, that my only real friends here, that I can trust absolutely, are named Colt, Winchester, and Smith & Wesson.
Lady Red # 8 ...Obama has also apparently not learned to just shut up. When you have nothing cogent to say, shut up. Reminds me of his alter ego ... Sarah Palin. Bwahahahaha =))
ReplyDeleteThe situation in Egypt is being watched with some consternation here in Israel, but we're jsut sitting tight for the moment. It's very worrying what will happen if the MB get into power. OTOH the Egyptian army seem to be fairly level-headed, and I would hope that cooler heads woudl prevail if the MB would want to heat up the Egypt-Israel border.
ReplyDeleteAs to the supply of gas to Israel - that would have been a problem up to about a month ago, when a huge natural gas field was discovered off the coast of Israel. G-d does indeed work in mysterious ways His wonders to perform.
At any rate, thank you all for your thoughts and prayers. They are greatly appreciated. Even though I don't think we're in any direct danger quite yet (I hope I hope) it's always good to have a stock of prayers to fall back on. :x
Thanks for the insight aridog (on your neighbors, not on the eeeevil Sarah Palin. Heh!) :D
ReplyDeleteAnnie, I hope you're right about the Egyptian army being level-headed. They've shown tremendous restraint so far, but it's difficult to know whose orders they're following, or WILL follow in the days to come.
You have our fervent prayers, today and every day. :X
Careful, folks - you're all starting to sound like me now, and we know where that leads.
ReplyDelete'You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you a hate site.'
DWT ... Not gonna be a hate site, heh heh. I can't really hate Muslims per se ... it's just that there is a phenomena of "group think" that almost seems genetic. Can't be of course, but it is none the less pervasive. Unfathomable. It is as if none wish to be observed doing Muslim averse things, even if they are secular as hell otherwise.
ReplyDeleteWhat they might do unobserved is another matter. A conundrum within is the inevitable spats between Sunni and Shiite. However, under pressure from outside (e.g., the USA, Israel, or anyone else in the "west") and they lock arms as one.
In the main, it is an unfathomable thing....
I mean, if you "get it" ... what you got?
My brother, my family, my tribe... yeah, another thing we westerners don't get too well.
ReplyDelete"Hate" has been so misused as to be nearly unrecognizable. It's well on its way to losing all meaning. Wonder what we'll label that emotion next - ultra extreme dislike?
We don't get the "strong man" aspect of Arab culture - we really don't. We didn't get it when our embassy was bombed, we didn't get it when the Cole was bombed, we didn't get it when the twin towers were bombed. Both the Taliban and Saddam needed to be ousted, but left vacuums we didn't fill because we wanted to be "sensitive". We could have been the strong man, but didn't choose that route either time and will continue to pay for it, perhaps with our civilization.
ReplyDeleteNAIL ON THE HEAD.
We don't get that about MANY of the world's cultures. Our touchy feely shit doesn't translate except as "weak". And for all that we've descended into this stupidity of "How I Look Doesn't Matter", it does matter. It matters a LOT.
Wagging fingers doesn't work. It never has.
"Our touchy freely shit doesn't translate except as "weak"."
ReplyDeleteWith ultimate credit to Lana, of course.
But that's really game, set, and match, AFW.
Ari, thank you for your observation. I suspect we all knew what your honest (as if you could be other) answer would be.
I don't hate anyone. As suggested, that term no longer has much meaning anyway.
But the real thing is, is that I'm not twenty one anymore. Unless things get horribly bad the most I am now is 'Typewriter Warrior'. That's not by choice. But it is all I have left.
Crazy, but here's what I think. Let's let the Commandant of the Marine Corp, after receiving advice down to E-4 -Corporal level, that E-4 only after consulting his men, decide what our path should be. That's how I worked.
That's a bullshit comment, up there. But believe me, it holds weight in my mind.
I apologize for commenting when I shouldn't be doing so.
It's all, really, too much for me. I can no longer argue ignorance into sense.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteYou know what though, florrie. I'm not sure what the right thing is, right now. Maybe the best thing Obama could do is to keep his mouth shut. I really don't know what we, as a Country, should be doing.
I hear you, Luther. I don't know what the right thing is either, I just know he doesn't exude confidence and that's what he should be showing the world right now. GWB took a stand and that was that - right or wrong and I certainly disagreed with him at times - that's what we need to be hearing now.
Yes, perhaps it's best that he just keeps quiet (although I think he is incapable of that, judging by the last 3+ years anyway).
Lurching from press conference to press conference - yup, that's his strong suit.
ReplyDeleteI so agree with you, Lyana, that we look weak to the Arab street (and elsewhere) due to numerous PC decisions in the field, like kowtowing to the Afghan warlords to placate their vanity rather than doing strategically what is required to win, our rules of engagement that leave our military people in even more danger, etc.
It isn't an individual "character" problem. It is a collective mentality that will always side with anyone Islamic, no matter how much they might hate them otherwise. Kneejerk response to peer pressure (and no small amount of plain old fear) ... no one will venture to be first to stand differently. Period.
ReplyDeleteDisheartening, but not surprising. Damn.
Here's a comment I made on annie's blog yesterday, it seems appropriate for this thread as well:
ReplyDeleteOur proudly Zionist PM, Stephen Harper, is paying Obama a visit this week. I hope some of his staunch support for Israel and his unwavering vocal defense of Israel and her people rub off on the POTUS.
I am truly sickened that the leader of the free world doesn’t appear to have the balls to come out and support Israel. It fills me with fear and anguish. If America fails Israel what hope is there.
Fay, all I can say is that there's currently a void in the "Leader of the Free World" category and PM Harper is stepping up to do what he can to fill that void in an admirable way. Canada, by reason of numbers alone, doesn't have the ability to dictate the game the way the US does. But with Harper's leadership, it is consistently leading the way in the stand for true democracy and human rights. I don't see that changing as long as this government is in power.
ReplyDeleteI'm picturing Harper grabbing Obama by the lapels and slamming him up against a wall. Twice. Maybe thrice.
ReplyDeleteI know! How about if we keep Harper here, and you Canucks can babysit Obama for awhile. Say until 2012 or so?
Annie so glad you and family are ok, and yes pull that new found gas out and then no worries about treaties that don't have Israel's best interest.
ReplyDelete"I hope some of his staunch support for Israel and his unwavering vocal defense of Israel and her people rub off on the POTUS."
ReplyDeleteI know I am being naughty, but I think you could have left out the "T" and the "U".
"I know! How about if we keep Harper here, and you Canucks can babysit Obama for awhile. Say until 2012 or so? "
ReplyDeleteNo
and
Way
"as long as this government is in power. "
ReplyDeleteI am hoping that he will finally get a majority government this year.
I know! How about if we keep Harper here, and you Canucks can babysit Obama for awhile. Say until 2012 or so?
ReplyDeleteIf only...
I know I am being naughty, but I think you could have left out the "T" and the "U".
ReplyDelete*snickering*
Well, good night all you fine people! I'm just checking in before hitting the sack, I have to get up early tomorrow..
Night florrie, sweet dreams.
ReplyDeleteGood comments. I reluctantly concur with the general sentiment.
ReplyDeleteThere are a number of anti-American story lines floating around with respect to Egypt.
This one is pretty much true (IHMO). I've seen stuff like this at CounterPunch and my god, I have to agree with it. This is sad, but perhaps hopeful, as the kleptocratic elite in this country pretty much "rip off the mask" and demonstrate their agenda of screwing the middle class here and poor people everywhere by killing the dollar and stoking global inflation.
---
BTW I agree with annie - the Egyptian military will likely behave as a rational actor in this drama. Why do I say this?
- They know their capabilities vs Israel. They are greater than they used to be. They could make a fair fight of it. Armed forces hate fair fights, in general - if they have a choice, they will chose not to engage in "fair fights".
- The Egyptian military enjoys substantial material privileged status - special housing, health clubs, stores, etc. They aren't going to be eager to jeopardize this status.
- The military is now being given a Sophies's choice by Mubarak - fire on civilians or stage a coup. Aging autocrats have been known to overplay their hands with greater regularity than professional armed forces. Just sayin'.
As for the demonstrators, I don't believe most of them are radical or eager for jihad.
I fully believe the Muslim Brotherhood will co-opt and hijack the "revolution" at the first opportunity (a la Iran). There appear to me to be moderate Muslims in the world, but moderate Islamists are either confused or lying.
The good news is that the MB isn't as crazy as the Khomeneists.
The bad news is... that the MB isn't as crazy as the Khomeinists.
This is a serious medium to long term problem for Israel. I don't think it's a short term problem. More akin to Turkey (gradual slide into Islamism at the expense of the Army) rather than Iran.
This is just speculation obviously.
And just so Luther doesn't feel lonely extrapolating past the boundaries of his comfort zone (;)), let me add this - I have absolutely no standing to comment about intra-Jewish relations but what the hell, I stand ready to be corrected...
ReplyDelete...I've noticed some absolute crap - but telling and informative crap - coming from Jeffrey Goldberg at the Atlantic. Normally I view him as kinda the left-liberal bound of sanity - i.e. worth reading if not agreeing with - but he's kinda lost it lately, ranting about whether Israel is still a democracy.
Goldberg couldn't possibly be more obtuse, and to me the insight is obvious - Israeli democracy represents Israeli Jews - it's just that Israeli demographics have drifted away from American Jewish diaspora demographics.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but American Jews used to look at the Israelis of a generation ago, and see themselves - educated, left-liberal Ashkenazim, only with stones the size of boulders and guns to match. Obviously they identified and idolized these Zionists - they were like themselves, only braver and more idealistic. What's not to like?
Nowadays the American Jew sees the rise of the Orthodox, the haredim, the Sephardim, the Russian immigrants, and no longer see a population they identify with. This creates a crisis for them whereby they question the legitimacy of the necessary goals and strategies of the Jews of Israel (which are nicely represented in their vibrant democracy, thank you very much), because necessity has intruded _waay_ too far into the comfort zone of their (overdeveloped) moral vanity.
I don't know how this plays out but I think it's telling and explains a fair bit of ambivalence in the evolution American Jewish attitudes towards Israel (and creates openings for disingenuous organizations like J-Street, which twenty years ago would have been laughed out of the room.)
Obviously once again I stand ready to be informed by folks who are, you know, actually Jewish, Israeli and otherwise, as opposed to the armchair WASP/Buddhist/blatherer that I am.
Lewy14's # 34 ... you tempt me sorely to go off on "rant" on the subject you address...e.g., the Goldberg genre' of American Jews. I'd sound near Nazi, trust me.
ReplyDeleteBut surprise, surprise ...I won't. That rare moment I can momentarily STFU abides now.
Suffice it to say that you do NOT have to be Jewish, or even know a single Jew, to grasp what "Democracy" is (in Israel or anywhere else, "intra" or "inter") ... the Israeli version is just a bit more convoluted...more "voices" heard, etc. The "Tabula Rasa" (John Locke ... a Puritan) does not distinguish between groups on the "consent of the governed idea."
Other stuff: Ran across this link and couldn't pass it up...
Peace out.
imgw:"http://www.thenoseonyourface.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/bumper.JPG"
Oh, oh...and I just gotta have this magnet for me fridge....
ReplyDeleteimgw:"http://images8.cpcache.com/product/433511478v2_480x480_Front.jpg"
And ... never fear, we're fighting for, sponsoring and supporting this great aboriginal Pashtun custom....
ReplyDeleteimgw:"http://www.southfloridagaynews.com/images/stories/issues/v1i8/taliban-boy-sex-slaves.jpg"
For more info on Bacha Bazi ... check it out.
ReplyDeleteWe're fighting and trying to rebuild/improve this country, right? Why?
You really are trying to turn this into a hate site, aren't you Aridog? I think I've got steam coming out of my ears now.
ReplyDeleteWhy indeed.
/stomps off mumbling about millstones, ropes, necks and the Mariana Trench
"/stomps off mumbling about millstones, ropes, necks and the Mariana Trench "
ReplyDeleteROFLMAO! The Mariana Trench... hahaha.
Well hell, I've never run into the HTML character limit before... So this will be in two parts.
ReplyDeleteThen again... I just read what follows this morning. My old unit has a website from which us old farts keep in touch. The unit was recently (two years ago) re-activated and is now doing duty in Afghanistan. Here's a newsletter about what they are doing there. Sorry for the length...
"Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 15:40:33 -0500
Subject: 3/9 Update to Families
Dear 3/9 Families:
I know it has been a while since I last wrote you. I will try to make information updates to you all more frequently.
Thanks to one of our family members, we were able to identify a mail delivery delay occurring within one of our companies. The issues associated with this delay have since been fixed and should not be repeated. I appreciate the tips that you all provide us. Please keep them coming so we can make problems for our people go away.
We are working with 6th Marine Regiment and the 2d Marine Division on some information dissemination issues at the moment. Our parent units at Camp Lejeune want to ensure that we are all well supported and that you all are informed properly and punctually. Please be patient.
Weapons Company and Lima Company recently completed a successful "Operation Goliath". The enemy had been intimidating and threatening a 15-square kilometer area of Marjah for years. Weapons and Lima Companies freed the citizens of this area and have begun to hire local police forces. Weapons Company is building a permanent patrol base in the area as well. It is uplifting to see so many Afghan children and adults happy that we came to their area. I can't say enough good about the work done by Weapons and Lima Companies during Operation Goliath.
Currently we are conducting a Female Health Initiative to train 40 female medical personnel. And we are working with the Afghan National Army doctors and local physicians to treat ailing local national males. Additionally, we are working with several large foreign and U.S. aid organizations to provide 70,000 sapling trees to Marjah. These trees will help restore the fruit agri-business to this area.
India and Kilo Companies are working on roads, canal cleanings, and bridges. A small bazaar is set to open close to India Company's main base. Solar lights have been installed on the main road in India's area. Kilo Company is working on a school extension program and has numerous other projects in the works.
H&S Company has assumed responsibilities for upgrading Marjah's main bazaar and is working to build a soccer field here in Marjah. The road through the main bazaar is being paved. This is the first paved road in Marjah's history. Personnel within the respective H&S Company sections work around the clock. Forward Operating Base (FOB) Marjah is the city that truly never sleeps.
Continued...
ReplyDeleteFox Company, 2nd Battalion 3rd Marines, from Hawaii, has been attached to our battalion and is working very hard in the northern area of Marjah. Every day they find numerous hidden weapons and ammunition dumps. They are a good hard working unit that is a great addition to our team here.
We are working side-by-side with the Afghan Army, Afghan Police, and local Afghan government. Local elders and leaders are standing up for freedom, often at extreme risks to themselves and their families. Things are getting better here in Marjah for many reasons, but it would not be possible without the tremendous efforts and professionalism of our Marines and Sailors.
I am extremely proud of the team, as I'm sure you are. I know they all miss you and appreciate your continued thoughts and prayers. May God bless you all. I will be in touch again soon.
Semper Fidelis:
LtCol D. W. Hudspeth USMC"
As I've said previously it is the women and children that I feel bad about, the children especially. If we could just get to them before they got caught up in that loop of insanity they might have a chance. I know realistic odds are that it will never happen, but as long as our Marines and Army are still willing to give it a shot I'll stand behind them in support. Call it what you will but I just can't help feeling that way no matter the futile bleakness of the situation.
I'm sorry. It might seem as if I'm implying that some don't support our troops. I KNOW that is not the case here.
ReplyDeleteBut I find it a fine line in calling for a bug out, which I've said I'm also leaning toward, and at the same time giving support to the men and women in the trenches.
I don't know how to do, make that internal transition, frankly.
I don't know how to do that, make that internal transition, frankly.
ReplyDeleteYes, Lewy. Spengler makes much the same point as the Fortune article. Except he goes further in his analysis of what ails Egypt. For example I wasn't aware that 9 out of 10 Egyptian women have suffered genital mutilation. Which points right back at Ari's contribution this morning about the barbarity of the entire region. Also, several articles at American Thinker somewhat tie together what we've been discussing here. This letter from Egypt as posted by Clarice Feldman gives a different perspective of actual events on the ground in the last few days. Then there's a bit about accepting Islam on its own terms, also pertinent to our discussion here. And lastly, how failed Socialism is also a component of the Egyptian 'crisis'.
ReplyDeleteI take your points about the Egyptian military, they're good ones that I agree with for the most part. My only caveat would be the unknown depth of MB penetration into the equation. With the MB waiting for the right conditions before showing their true hand. Excellent and well put point about the relative insanity of MB and the Khomeinists. No rational actors on either side as far as I'm concerned.
Haha... and thanks for your concern about my extrapolative boundaries. :)
But in this instance I think I'll stay within my comfort zone concerning Israel, democracy, and American Jews. Not that I don't agree with all of what you say but I know too little about that subject to have any sort of opinion.
I'd settle for Laura's castration tools.
ReplyDeleteSorry for monopolizing the place. I guess I'll shut the hell up now.
ReplyDeleteEr, that was after reading Lyana's comment #39.
ReplyDelete:)
ReplyDeleteYes, I got it, though it would certainly have been easy to mis-construe your comment, florrie. :)
Luther, thanks for printing up that letter. It IS heartening to read about what our troops are accomplishing.
ReplyDeleteYes, it's a fine line, whether to slog on or leave. I think the efforts by our troops will make a difference, maybe for future generations in Afghanistan. But do you think the Taliban or others will undo our hard work once we're out of the area? How long can we realistically stay? I could be very mistaken about this but haven't there been some areas that we've had to take back time and again?
That culture is sick. The link Aridog posted illustrates that it's not just Taliban, it's Northern Alliance, heck - most Pashtun, apparently.
I feel sick.
Yes, I got it, though it would certainly have been easy to mis-construe your comment, florrie.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's what I was worried about!!
:-)
Well, the chimney guy will be here soon, bbl.
ReplyDeleteTo Lewy14 at no. 34: Your comments about Goldberg and about the attitude of much of American Jewry towards Israel hits the nail on the head. You don't need to feel apologetic about your opinion, whatever your religion or nationality. When you're right you're right.
ReplyDeleteI wish you were wrong. ::sigh::
Luther, thanks for that letter from your old unit. It really does make a difference to read real-time articles about what's going on over there.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you and florrie and all the others - will all the wonderful work done in Afghanistan be undone the minute the Americans and allies leave? Yet how long can they stay? I don't think anyone has the answer. Perhaps if the local population gets introduced to the Western way of doing things they might not be so interested in letting the Taliban take over afterwards. But will they have the power to resist if the Taliban take over by force?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"But do you think the Taliban or others will undo our hard work once we're out of the area? How long can we realistically stay? I could be very mistaken about this but haven't there been some areas that we've had to take back time and again?"
ReplyDeleteI don't like being so negative. But yes, IMO, within a year of our already programmed departure it will be as if we were never there. It may take longer depending on how organized a resistance those who've tasted freedom can put up in the face of suicidal, literally, onslaught. We can't stay forever, we lack the political will anymore to truly finish a fight with all that might entail. Yes, I'm sure we've had to retake positions that were once held. Hell, in my war I had to retake the same hill three times. It's not necessarily unusual.
"Perhaps if the local population gets introduced to the Western way of doing things they might not be so interested in letting the Taliban take over afterwards."
If we could be there longer I would agree there would be a possibility of this happening. But we won't be.
Besides, as pointed out, it is a sick culture at root. It would take eons I'm afraid to effect long lasting change.
Glad that letter was enjoyed. It does help to hear directly what is going on and reading between the lines it would seem that morale and mission focus both seem high.
Here's question for ya' on Afghanistan: Can anyone tell me exactly "why" the various groups and alliances are fighting us? Other than the old Taliban, long ago stomped, who has anything to lose? The "new" Taliban resistance is growing and we seem to be the fertilizer.
ReplyDeleteI used to think I understood and knew this, why we hand to go there, what our goals were, etc ... now I am sure I do not beyond going there and killing them.
I think Luther's letter reflects much of my own experience in the military, did my time at orphanages, schools, with foreign forces side by side, fighting or building things, etc...and I have an acquaintance/friend in a senior command (full bird) in Afghanistan now whose comments are very similar in tone and content to the letter Luther posted. It breaks my heart. WE have the finest military in the world, now and forever. That doesn't change what we're propping up.
When we leave, it won't be a year, or even a month ... give it 24 hours max and back to square one ignorant holy backward savagery ... and they'll be pissed and aggrieved we also stop sending money ... that more than anything.
I am a wildlife nut..... you know, one of those loons who thinks wolves and bears and cougars should share space with you and you need to get comfy with it. I'm not as much a fan of humans, they're less civilized. As for the Afghans .... my view is they are more like rabid predators, incurably diseased, and lethal to mankind in general.
Having lunched with annie, I can assure everyone here that we are indeed fortunate that she puts up with the idiosyncrasies of Petah Tikvah. And here, unequivocally, we stand with her and her "shitty little country".
ReplyDeleteMore seriously, kudos to the Israeli Naval Command for getting the two IL nuke subs through the Suez last year (admittedly, the Mohammedans likely don't ascribe to MAD, but at least the boats are a regional counterweight). Lewy @ 45 identifies the horrific consequences of an MB takeover of the Egyptian state, as did Michael McCarthy in yesterday's NR-"The Corner".
Ari: If you can wade through it, Charles Allen's (London Times foreign journo) excellent, albeit execrably-entitled, "God's Terrorists" is a first rate analysis of the Pathans. And reading Kipling's Kim again sets it all in recent context.
And, of course- blow the Aswan and 30 million Egyptians are killed and much of Cairo is destroyed in 48 hours.
ReplyDelete/shades of the Poster That Shall Not Be Named, but it is a very real fact. And, one hopes, a key element in Israel's future survival post-Mubarak Egypt.
@lewy 14- A MOT buddy of mine has those maddening attributes; he refers to himself as "a social Jew". A couple of million more like him, and there goes Israel...
@57 Aridog: I can't speak for anyone but myself on this, but I've said for a VERY long time that we'll be in Afghanistan for years. Like, at least 50.
ReplyDeleteI'm not big on the involuntary nation building thing. I have kids. I know you can't force anyone to do things they do not want to do.
However, Afghanistan's appeal to terrorists is unique and, I think, not going to change whether America is there to pre-empt things or not. The very lack of infrastructure, government, the terrain, and ingrained cultural corruption that makes corruption in the Middle East look like a Kindergartener is in charge, makes AFGH* appeal to groups who want to be left on their own (until they are ready to create their planned havoc) - American presence or not.
My plan would be to have strategic American enclaves from which we bomb the problems as needed and help those who WANT our help. Because there are some who do. And it will take more than a generation for that help to come to fruition and begin to inspire others in that society.
Here's a carrot, here's a stick. Here's a stick with a carrot on the end of it. Play or don't, but there are consequences either way.
Not that I'm an expert. Or even that I stayed in a Holiday Inn last night. Because I didn't.
*as distinguished from AFG - my husband.
I am a wildlife nut..... you know, one of those loons who thinks wolves and bears and cougars should share space with you and you need to get comfy with it. I'm not as much a fan of humans, they're less civilized. As for the Afghans .... my view is they are more like rabid predators, incurably diseased, and lethal to mankind in general.
ReplyDeleteI am with you 100% about wildlife. And if I'm really honest, I find a lot to agree with the latter part.
ReplyDeleteMy plan would be to have strategic American enclaves from which we bomb the problems as needed and help those who WANT our help. Because there are some who do. And it will take more than a generation for that help to come to fruition and begin to inspire others in that society.
That makes sense, afw. I don't want to see all the deaths and sufferings from duty in Afghanistan be in vain. I want it to work and I agree that AFGH* is a country with the unique circumstances you mention to make it ideal for the bad guys. If we could have a very, very safe enclave for our military people there and bomb the shyte out of the bad guys - and let the COs command their men! - then I would be in favor of remaining there.
*kept trying to figure out the acronym...airforcegy's hellfiremissiles, airforceguy's handgrenades...ummm*
OK, now I'm picturing shirtless Putin for some reason.
Luther - thanks for the Spengler article. Interesting in that Spengler agrees with Ben Bernanke that Asian growth and affluence is responsible for high food prices, not the trillions in digital dollars printed by the Fed. I'll concede that Asian growth has something to do with it but I'm not prepared to give Ben a pass on this completely. But the whole Spengler article is very good.
ReplyDeleteI also liked the American Thinker piece with the letter from Eqypt - very good info on Gamal Mubarak and his technocrat crew - you know until this upheaval, Goldman Sachs had pegged Egypt as one of the countries with very high economic potential (google Jim O'Neil and N11). Oh well.
I'd wondered if the current crisis was creating a buying opportunity - I think the answer is no. Won't be buying any Egyptian ETFs.
Interesting (as in "sad and pathetic") that the best hope for modernizing the Egyptian economy and killing socialism there was... dynastic nepotism, and now that's the one possible future that's off the table. Anyway if the letter is correct, then the demonstrations today (Friday - the "day of departure") will fail.
Luther - also - thanks for the letter from your old unit.
ReplyDeleteFor the moment I don't really have a coherent opinion on what we should be doing but it's heartening to see that we sill have choices - we continue to be able to achieve a positive impact. For as long as we choose.
Which I'd like to think we could keep up for the requisite 50 years (pace afw), but don't, quite.
Ari #37 - that picture is interesting ("interesting" as in "completely fucking sick").
ReplyDeleteIf you look at accounts of ancient Greek pederasty (no links - this is very much a "Google for yourself" topic - but Wikipedia has the information I read), you'll find descriptions which match the pose in that picture exactly - the grip of the chin, etc. (Yeah. Etc.)
Now recall: Kandahar is another Alexandria, founded by Alexander the Great. Who, if I might speculate a bit, likely brought the full spectrum of his contemporary culture with him in his conquests (and his "conquests").
Right. OK.
So, in Egypt at least they get the Ptolemaic dynasty, and build a library in Alexandria, and have one last fling as a great power before Augustus put the lights out a few centuries later.
Persia too continues to be a center of civilization after Alexander. So does Asia Minor.
But what do the Pashtuns get?
Do they pick up Philosophy from the Greeks? Literature? Mathematics? Dramatics? Music? No.
Boy fucking seems to be the beginning and the end of their cultural inheritance from the glory of Hellenism.
Passed down like a carefully preserved fossil - twenty three consecutive centuries of systematic ass-rape.
How completely fucking awesome.
[Sorry for the vulgarity. I claim the defense of "necessity"].
Ari. Isn't the 'new' Taliban the same as the 'old' Taliban? I mean, they do share the same goals and aspirations it would seem, in so far as desiring a totalitarian theocracy. Is it more nuanced than that? And won't the end result of that again be a safe haven for Islamic terrorism to grow and fester, a carbuncle on the ass of the world?
ReplyDelete"If we could have a very, very safe enclave for our military people there and bomb the shyte out of the bad guys - and let the COs command their men!"
florrie. This is much how it worked in my war. And it was effective, we did have control over the territory we patrolled. But it takes a constant and continuous presence. America, certain American's, no longer have the will for such.
Well Lewy I'll take the easy way and say it is a combination of Asian growth and digital dollars. I'll also say that with commodity prices (especially wheat, rice, corn) continuing to rise we'll see more disorder in poorer areas of the world. It seems inevitable and unavoidable to me. How world 'leaders' will react to continuing crisis remains to be seen.
Interesting take, 'dynastic nepotism'. But yes, for a short while that did seem to be working. If the technocrats could have been more accommodating to the usual partakers, i.e., the military et. al. then they may have had better longer term success. As it is, right, that option is no longer viable.
As for 'choices' re Afghanistan I don't see that we have any. We've announced our departure date already. The only question is if in between now and then we can train and inoculate a large enough segment of that society to hold the progress that has been made. As I said above, I have my doubts.
I shouldn't laugh, as it is sad commentary... but I LOL'd at your speculation as to the consequences of Alexander's influence. If only we could have such success with the more abstract doctrine of individual freedom.
Jeeze, just call me an unedumacated yokel... at least I saw it in the sidebar.
ReplyDelete"Isn't the 'new' Taliban the same as the 'old' Taliban?"
Aren't the....
More pressure on prices.
ReplyDeleteA severe drought in northern China has badly damaged the winter wheat crop and left the ground very dry for the spring planting, fueling inflation and alarming China’s leaders.
lewy #65, +10. TY.
ReplyDeleteOMG!! Our beloved project nation du jour is going to rake in 48% less this year!!
ReplyDeleteOh, the humanity ...
imgw:"http://btx3.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/opium-production1.jpg?w=468&h=312"
Luther ... yeah, Taliban is Taliban. The "new" part is the re-growth of their sponsorship, new, younger members, etc. as we've gone from successful liberators to be-deviled occupiers in the populace's medieval eyes ... with Al Qaeda mingled in to boot.
ReplyDeleteThe only good one is a dead one.
""If we could have a very, very safe enclave for our military people there and bomb the shyte out of the bad guys -..."
ReplyDeleteYou betcha. Safe "enclave" is called the contiguous 48 states. B2's and various drones can be sent to kill the f**kers from rural Ohio and Nebraska AFB's.
You betcha
ReplyDeletelol, that's ok Aridog, I was just trying to take part in the discussion.
*wandering off now*
Why the heck did Gibbs say the admin wanted to see "non-secular" people involved in the Egyptian govt???
ReplyDeleteWTF?? Are you kidding me?
"Why the heck did Gibbs say the admin wanted to see "non-secular" people involved in the Egyptian govt???"
ReplyDeleteflorrie... when was that? Today? A link?
And right, what the hell does that mean.
White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said a reformed government "has to include a whole host of important non-secular actors that give Egypt a strong chance to continue to be a stable and reliable partner."
ReplyDeleteHere's a link, Luther.
Un-frickin-believable.
I wonder if the admin thinks it's important to have non-secular people (let's say, uh...Christians) in his government?
Thanks, florrie.
ReplyDelete"White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said a reformed government "has to include a whole host of important non-secular actors that give Egypt a strong chance to continue to be a stable and reliable partner."
Either they're insane or deeply malevolent. That's all I can come up with.
Insane or deeply malevolent sounds about right...
ReplyDeleteIt is a crazy world anymore.
ReplyDeleteNight, florrie.
Whoops.
ReplyDeleteNight!
ReplyDelete(Is that you, Luther?)
It was. My smartphone g-mail account.
ReplyDelete^^^ Luther, that's why I don't "sign in" all that often. Too easy to lose track of who I am at the moment...: P
ReplyDeleteLuther, Alphie,
ReplyDeleteIf you have the Firefox browser, there is an add-on called CookieSwap which allows you to change "identities" without signing off and signing back in again as someone else. I've used it and it works.
However, lately I've been just using Firefox for my "lewy" identity and Safari for my "real" identity. That works too.
On my Android smart phone I have two gmail accounts set up; it seems pretty easy to switch between them.
Hell, Alphie, 63 and I still don't have a clue who I am. :)
ReplyDeleteMaybe that's why I'm so easily confused.
Lewy - you've forgotten I'm the outlier here. IE9 and Vista. And before anyone chimes in they work perfect for me. :| I've tried Firefox a couple of times and just couldn't see the advantages... though I am sure they are there. I happen to like the tight integration between browser, OS, mail, etc. But of course thanks for the tip anyway.
"IE9 and Vista. And before anyone chimes in they work perfect for me."
ReplyDeleteFine with us Luther, there aren't any browser snobs in these here parts AFAIK.
For my browser I prefer Celestron.
ReplyDeleteFor my browser I prefer Celestron.
ReplyDeleteMatt, stop being such a browser snob. You're making lewy look bad. :)) :D :X
I finally dumped my malfunctioning HP, and bought a new Toshiba. It's not one of the fancy ones with all the bells and whistles, but so far I really love it. It's lighter and faster, and it likes me. Yay! :)
I don't think there are either, Fay. But being a white man, I'm always paranoid that I'm doing something wrong, to someone, somewhere, somehow, or did do so some several hundred or even thousands of years in the past. Not that I give a shit, usually and really, but still it resides in the back of ones mind, and the best defense is a good offense.
ReplyDeleteMatt... I really did laugh out loud. I think you're right, much less stressful, more entertaining, and one learns something to boot.
ReplyDeleteHave you two been on a nice vacation?
Lady Red... good for you!
ReplyDeleteI was just looking at Toshiba's on Amazon. They offer a lot of bang for the buck.
Did you get the purple one lr?
ReplyDeleteLuther #89, LMAO!
ReplyDelete"Have you two been on a nice vacation? "
ReplyDeleteWhy, do we look tanned and rested?
Why, do we look tanned and rested?
ReplyDeleteLMAO!
Fay, I didn't get the purple one...it was a little too pricey for my budget.
Lady Red, a can of Rust-oleum will do the trick.
ReplyDeleteMatt, ROFL!!! I can just picture the look of horror on Noah's face!
ReplyDeleteHey, we're about to have our first 100 comment thread! How cool!
ReplyDeleteMe!
ReplyDeleteOne more, now me!
ReplyDeleteYeah #100
Woohoo!!
ReplyDeleteCongratulations lady red, very fitting that the century was achieved on one of your posts. Yippee!
ReplyDeleteYay for us!!!
ReplyDeletelmao all of you!
ReplyDelete(Good to see the javascript hacks work on hundred comment threads. Yay for fast computers!)
"Why, do we look tanned and rested?"
ReplyDeleteDon't know. But you do sound tanned and rested. And that's even better!
Now that we've hit the big time, when do we start saying "First!"?
ReplyDeleteMatt, LMAO!!! Even the thought of someone hollering "first!" gives me the giggles...
ReplyDelete